Fascinating piece. Thank you for sharing it. As an evangelical who got wrapped into the Driscoll thing as an 18/19 year old, and has now seen through the faults in it, I liked much of your analysis. I’d also say, evangelicalism at its worst is as you describe it. But reading someone like John Stott or to go back further—John Owen, Charles Spurgeon or John Bunyan—brings more nuance than a Driscoll (or his ilk). There is imagery of Pilgrimage, multiple pictures of atonement including Christus Victor, and examples of men who did not choose a culture war version of Christianity, but a robust, Christ-centric vision of men (and women) on a dangerous journey to glory, with the Spirit’s help indwelling and empowering those steps.
I see I’m a bit late to the party on this piece but bravo! It’s a nuanced appraisal of the trend of been seeing.
As an Anglican priest I can venture- many Anglicans I know are starting to see Orthodoxy as a more natural partner with/end of our theological aims than Roman Catholicism.
I think the main difference between us is in what degree of security can be found in the “certainty” of Church history (and how much cartoonizing of CH is required to get the prize of absolute assurance/ and how “evangelical” is that tendency anyway- people like David Bentley Hart suggesting it’s a Protestant hold over being imported to Orthodoxy via conversions may have a point). In the end, that’s what I take your “red pilled spiritual warfare as cultural warfare” comment to allude to. I wager that’s the internal fight western Orthodoxy will have on its hands for the rest of this generation. I’m praying hard that the right sides prevail!
DBH is an interesting figure. He has some good critiques of American Evangelical converts in this talk. Here's a favorite anecdote of his, timestamped. https://youtu.be/WU3y_h47ByE?t=758
An Evangelical-turned-Orthodox man on a tour bus in Constantinople says, with an unironic Southern drawl, "These Latins simply cannot understand what the sack of Constantinople in 1204 still means to us!"
I was making an amazing comment here, and then I inadvertently swiped my app, and Substack deleted it. I am very sad! In any event, thank you for this interesting post. I discovered Fight Club and the Orthodox Church at about the same time, and this is prodding interesting connections between those two things I had not fathomed.
Great piece. Sending to a friend that lamented to me that “Church mens ministries are just like this (meme showing sports, Jean shorts, grilling, non alcoholic beer). Instead of being renaissance men interested in things like art, beauty, music, etc it always has to be like we are a bunch of simpletons who like sports, meat, etc”. It is curious to me how often the feminization of Christianity is opined about when I see so much macho man in the Christiansphere. Also, the complaint inherently shows a bias against the feminine.
Really well done, thank you. I stumbled into Orthodoxy about five years ago, following my nose and a love for the words of the Desert Fathers. It’s funny how individual paths converge into cultural movements. I appreciated this tour through the larger landscape. 🙏
It’s like you’re writing from a point of view that takes the world/atheists and homosexuals at face value and makes Christianity mere ornamentation.
When Adam was created, he was placed in a garden, not the wild. He was not created to live a life of discomfort and suffering. Neither would have developed his masculinity.
Because masculinity is not an attitude. You are not masculine by engaging with superfluous hobbies and acquiring skills or muscles. Masculinity is the function of human males in society.
And men are emasculated because they serve no function. Government raises kids and protects women. And that’s exactly how men want it.
Thanks for this. As someone who was obsessed with this movie for several years (high school and after) I know what the author is talking about. "How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?" Indeed... I never got much into Driscoll, I'll just say that the "solution" is to a different question. Imo churches reactions should be subsidiary, but most of the time, if they're not reacting to anything, they are left with nothing to talk about. They don't believe in what they're doing... I was following a comedian online for a while and pretty soon his channel became entirely his political views. I was left thinking, 'if you truly believed in the power of comedy, you would trust it to guide your audience to a sane politic.' His manhandling of his audience revealed he did not trust his craft... a movie i later became obsessed with (in a healthier way) was "the big kahuna" with Danny devito and Kevin spacey. It's three businessmen sitting in a hospitality suite discussing God. The Big kahuna picks up where fight club leaves off. In fight club, "Nothing was solved, but nothing matered," and "hitting bottom" is praised throughout. (I might argue that hitting bottom is this nous idea.) The Big kahuna says, 'Okay, we are at bottom; now what?'... Anyway, thanks for posting this. Fight club was a major part of my life for a few years.
Fascinating piece. Thank you for sharing it. As an evangelical who got wrapped into the Driscoll thing as an 18/19 year old, and has now seen through the faults in it, I liked much of your analysis. I’d also say, evangelicalism at its worst is as you describe it. But reading someone like John Stott or to go back further—John Owen, Charles Spurgeon or John Bunyan—brings more nuance than a Driscoll (or his ilk). There is imagery of Pilgrimage, multiple pictures of atonement including Christus Victor, and examples of men who did not choose a culture war version of Christianity, but a robust, Christ-centric vision of men (and women) on a dangerous journey to glory, with the Spirit’s help indwelling and empowering those steps.
I see I’m a bit late to the party on this piece but bravo! It’s a nuanced appraisal of the trend of been seeing.
As an Anglican priest I can venture- many Anglicans I know are starting to see Orthodoxy as a more natural partner with/end of our theological aims than Roman Catholicism.
I think the main difference between us is in what degree of security can be found in the “certainty” of Church history (and how much cartoonizing of CH is required to get the prize of absolute assurance/ and how “evangelical” is that tendency anyway- people like David Bentley Hart suggesting it’s a Protestant hold over being imported to Orthodoxy via conversions may have a point). In the end, that’s what I take your “red pilled spiritual warfare as cultural warfare” comment to allude to. I wager that’s the internal fight western Orthodoxy will have on its hands for the rest of this generation. I’m praying hard that the right sides prevail!
DBH is an interesting figure. He has some good critiques of American Evangelical converts in this talk. Here's a favorite anecdote of his, timestamped. https://youtu.be/WU3y_h47ByE?t=758
An Evangelical-turned-Orthodox man on a tour bus in Constantinople says, with an unironic Southern drawl, "These Latins simply cannot understand what the sack of Constantinople in 1204 still means to us!"
Really enjoyed this. Thank you!
I was making an amazing comment here, and then I inadvertently swiped my app, and Substack deleted it. I am very sad! In any event, thank you for this interesting post. I discovered Fight Club and the Orthodox Church at about the same time, and this is prodding interesting connections between those two things I had not fathomed.
Great piece. Sending to a friend that lamented to me that “Church mens ministries are just like this (meme showing sports, Jean shorts, grilling, non alcoholic beer). Instead of being renaissance men interested in things like art, beauty, music, etc it always has to be like we are a bunch of simpletons who like sports, meat, etc”. It is curious to me how often the feminization of Christianity is opined about when I see so much macho man in the Christiansphere. Also, the complaint inherently shows a bias against the feminine.
Really well done, thank you. I stumbled into Orthodoxy about five years ago, following my nose and a love for the words of the Desert Fathers. It’s funny how individual paths converge into cultural movements. I appreciated this tour through the larger landscape. 🙏
It’s like you’re writing from a point of view that takes the world/atheists and homosexuals at face value and makes Christianity mere ornamentation.
When Adam was created, he was placed in a garden, not the wild. He was not created to live a life of discomfort and suffering. Neither would have developed his masculinity.
Because masculinity is not an attitude. You are not masculine by engaging with superfluous hobbies and acquiring skills or muscles. Masculinity is the function of human males in society.
And men are emasculated because they serve no function. Government raises kids and protects women. And that’s exactly how men want it.
Thanks for this. As someone who was obsessed with this movie for several years (high school and after) I know what the author is talking about. "How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?" Indeed... I never got much into Driscoll, I'll just say that the "solution" is to a different question. Imo churches reactions should be subsidiary, but most of the time, if they're not reacting to anything, they are left with nothing to talk about. They don't believe in what they're doing... I was following a comedian online for a while and pretty soon his channel became entirely his political views. I was left thinking, 'if you truly believed in the power of comedy, you would trust it to guide your audience to a sane politic.' His manhandling of his audience revealed he did not trust his craft... a movie i later became obsessed with (in a healthier way) was "the big kahuna" with Danny devito and Kevin spacey. It's three businessmen sitting in a hospitality suite discussing God. The Big kahuna picks up where fight club leaves off. In fight club, "Nothing was solved, but nothing matered," and "hitting bottom" is praised throughout. (I might argue that hitting bottom is this nous idea.) The Big kahuna says, 'Okay, we are at bottom; now what?'... Anyway, thanks for posting this. Fight club was a major part of my life for a few years.
Thanks for writing this. I'll come back to it a few times I'm sure!
Excellent. You might also appreciate this from Nathan Beacom, which pulls on many of these same threads: https://comment.org/men-only-want-one-thing/